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Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by Davide » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:43 pm

Outcome: techlost_recv set to 0

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by ifaesfu » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:16 am

Corbeau wrote:Just curious, when you "lose" (or, more precisely, "don't gain" a tech), what's there to prevent you from trying again in the same turn? (Apart from the obvious case of spending a diplomat/spy to steal it.)

You arrange a meeting, A gives tech to B. Transfer fails. Any reason not to try again?


You can try every time you want to, but if the techloss percentage was 100%, it would be useless. If it was 20%, you would surely want to try it again and again.
That's why it would be good at least a 60%. That way, it wouldn't be free to exchange techs between many players and get a very big gap with others just trading techs.

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by Corbeau » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:22 am

For the record, using the statistical weight method, the poll result is around 40% ;) One more 0% vote would make it exactly 35% ;)

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by Corbeau » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:20 am

Just curious, when you "lose" (or, more precisely, "don't gain" a tech), what's there to prevent you from trying again in the same turn? (Apart from the obvious case of spending a diplomat/spy to steal it.)

You arrange a meeting, A gives tech to B. Transfer fails. Any reason not to try again?

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by morphles » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:14 am

Well one thing I'd like is reducing chance of tech stealing on conquest. Chance of loss when stealing tech is total stupidity IMHO it should be included in diplomat failure chance and stacking additional probabilities here just seems silly/needless. As for treaties I don't know using certain line of thinking one can indeed come to conclusion that it could be quite effective in gt game. If you need to retransfer technology and it is rare that you and your ally is online at the same time you'll need to do more rounds to share tech which will basically slow it down somethat. But it relies on not being online at the same time with your ally, if you are it's just a bit more clicks. As I said previously those tech options maybe were "designed" with good intentions, but they seem at best rushed and adressing problems in very weird way.

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by ifaesfu » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:05 am

Captain Clown wrote:I'm not sure what these polls mean, but we've got the poll for "Meetings only after you make an embassy": http://civland.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=842. That poll, whose vote tally is currently 6-2 in favor, along with tech_leakage, ought to put a lot of pressure on players to produce diplomats and "sneak" them in to other players' cities. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

This poll is to set the chance of losing a tech when you are receiving it. When do you receive a tech? Every time you are given a tech in a treaty. Every time you successfully steal a tech from an enemy city. Every time you get a free tech after conquering a city. The intention is to limit the tech sharing that reduces the games to a matter of trade of techs with as many players as you can or die.
Of course, it should be 60-70% or more to be effective. Maybe I should have skipped 50%, 40%...

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by Captain Clown » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:27 am

Number 1 is, in my opinion, a good solution, along with disabling TECH TRADING/CONQUERING/STEALING.
However, along with this we also should fiddle with embassies too. E.G. we could allow giving embassies to known players, and at the same time embassies shuold have a time limit, e.g. 25 turns (or depending on players mutual relationships), after which they are autmoatically canceled and have to be renewed somehow.


I'm not sure what these polls mean, but we've got the poll for "Meetings only after you make an embassy": http://civland.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=842. That poll, whose vote tally is currently 6-2 in favor, along with tech_leakage, ought to put a lot of pressure on players to produce diplomats and "sneak" them in to other players' cities. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by monamipierrot » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:52 pm

Captain Clown wrote:
Code: Select all
  tech_leakage:
  0 - No reduction of the technology cost.
  1 - Technology cost is reduced depending on the number of players
      which already know the tech and you have an embassy with.
  2 - Technology cost is reduced depending on the number of all players
      (human, AI and barbarians) which already know the tech.
  3 - Technology cost is reduced depending on the number of normal
      players (human and AI) which already know the tech.

Number 1 is, in my opinion, a good solution, along with disabling TECH TRADING/CONQUERING/STEALING.
However, along with this we also should fiddle with embassies too. E.G. we could allow giving embassies to known players, and at the same time embassies shuold have a time limit, e.g. 25 turns (or depending on players mutual relationships), after which they are autmoatically canceled and have to be renewed somehow.

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by monamipierrot » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:12 pm

morphles wrote:As I said in previous thread, these all seem like good ideas, but I'd like to test no allied win in isolation from other changes as remedy to so called "special powers of alliances".

This is the side effect of GT "democratic" community: one goes in a direction and the other in the opposite one... GT "flavours" (which I proposed in General Discussion) are meant to prevent such random chaotical overleap of ideas which could be good if taken in a consistent ruleset environment.

Anyway, I don't like the techloss thing and I can't see how it could be good in any ruleset environment!
And it's not a matter of randomness. It's because if we fiddle with % there can be 2 outcomes:
1- techloss is too "soft": so, a proper - althou tricky - workaround could be arranged in order to trade techs without losing them, expecially with LARGE alliances where lost techs could be still spared in the hands of 3rd allies.
2- techloss is enough "hard": so nobody would exchange techs. OR maybe in some very exceptional cases, because you REALLY need some defending units and your ally can stand the bad odds. But this is a sort of nonsensical hazard game which does not add thrill to the match. Anyway, again, the only ones who could take advantage of such an operation are LARGE alliances or players with LOTS of time. So, why don't disable tech trading at all?

Re: Techloss when receiving

Post by Captain Clown » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:05 pm

What I don't know is the real effect of this setting. I mean how many bulbs are deducted according to the players that already know the tech you are researching.


from the source code for freeciv-2.4.2, .../common/tech.c, inside a function called base_total_bulbs_required:

Code: Select all
base_cost *= (double)(players - players_with_tech);
base_cost /= (double)players;


So, for example, if 20% of the players have the tech, then your cost is 80% (100%-20%) of the tech's normal cost. E.g., a tech that costs 500 bulbs will cost 400 bulbs instead. If everyone but you has the tech, and the game has twenty-five players, then the tech is nearly free. E.g., 500 bulbs reduces to 20 bulbs! Definitely a negative feedback loop to help players that are behind to catch up.

Though, the civ2civ3 ruleset sets tech_leakage to 1, which means leakage takes into account only players with whom you have an embassy. So you must make an effort to create embassies with other players to benefit from the leakage effect. There are two other tech_leakage settings, each more lenient. (See below.)

Code: Select all
  tech_leakage:
  0 - No reduction of the technology cost.
  1 - Technology cost is reduced depending on the number of players
      which already know the tech and you have an embassy with.
  2 - Technology cost is reduced depending on the number of all players
      (human, AI and barbarians) which already know the tech.
  3 - Technology cost is reduced depending on the number of normal
      players (human and AI) which already know the tech.

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