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Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

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Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby Corbeau » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:34 am

I've been toying with the idea for many moons, but only recently started to implement it. I'd like to throw some ideas out in the open, for discussion, stealing, brainstorming and so on. Plan to use it on 2.5.

Very briefly, the ruleset I'm working on consists of unit modification; not only stats, but some new concepts, and also on some ways to make the whole game a bit more realistic and with more options. This includes:

-creating a new class of units - Militia, very cheap (almost free) and ineffective, but possible to raise quickly; units are Warriors, Skirmishers (parallel to Musketeers) and Partisans

- making all units except some elite ones (alpines, armour, battleship) at least 50% cheaper, but making upkeep more expensive
(Reasoning: more action, more realism; during human history, it was easier to create an army than to keep it paid and supplied; low-intensity skirmishes and wars were much more common than it happens in the games where what usually happens is an all-out assault)

- unit upkeep doesn't depend on government, but on unit type. Example: all Militia: free; Musketeers: 1 coin, Riflemen: 2 coins, Artillery: 2 coins + 1 shield; Armour: 3 coins + 2 shields etc.

- Long-range class: Archers, Catapult, Cannon, Artillery, Howitzer, all use Bombard option, but with many more rounds to attack (except maybe archers which are a "poor man's artillery") so it's possible to reduce defender to 10%. In return, some of them can only travel by roads and none of them can enter rough terrain

- Veteran levels: each increases unit strength by 20% (overall ten levels); furthermore, unit gets an additional veteran level for each religious, scientific and monetary building present in a city where it is built (better morale, better knowledge/sense/training, better equipped)

- thinking about a major rehaul of strength/firepower/HP ratios, but that's of lesser importance because, in the end, it all amounts to "two units fight, one unit survives"; still looking for a way to implement a more paper-rock-Spock-scissors-lizzard approach, but it's very difficult with only two modes of combat (bombard and normal)

- ports and/or harbours increase trade on water tiles
- trade gain from hill tiles with roads

- settlers cost 3 population; new cities start with population 2. (I'm thinking about QuickStart option: a new unit, "Enhanced Settler / Founder / something", can't be built, you only get it at start, builds a city at population 3 or 4)

- have Statue of Liberty enable Democracies to go to war; in return, have more strict happiness penalty; units outside borders make three unhappy citizens; alternative: make available a small wonder that gives you access to all governments without anarchy
(Variant: Statue of L. is a regular city improvement, cost 100-200 shields, but maintainance costs 20 or more coins so either every time you go to war you have to pay to build it (and dismantle it) or you keep it alive for a hefty price)

- plague chance additionally reduced by scientific and some other buildings (mass transit, recycler...)

- some units require some buildings to be produced (Barracks -> any non-Militia, Factory -> Armour, Air; Harbour -> ancient/middleAges ships, Port Facility -> advanced ships, maybe: Library -> Diplomat, University -> Spy)

- very specific corruption levels depending on governments; just finishing the table, will publish it here when I'm done

- long-range units, armour and other fast units have decreased power when bombarding cities; modern infantry (especially Alpines and Marines) has increased power; similarly, only infantry has defence bonus in cities (maybe add this feature to non-open terrain if possible, will have to check)

--------------------

All comments are welcome.
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby XYZ » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:55 pm

Go for it!
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby sveinung » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:38 pm

Corbeau wrote:still looking for a way to implement a more paper-rock-Spock-scissors-lizzard approach

I suspect that Freeciv 2.5's combat bonus framework may be what you are looking for. It allows you to customize normal battle to give certain units advantages against certain other units.
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby Corbeau » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:36 pm

For reference, comments, criticism and drawing attention, here is the first draft of unit specs. The table shows both old (Civ2civ3, x2 movement) and new specs.

Opinions are more than welcome.
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby morphles » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:20 pm

Rather good ideas with units (though I only looked at post, not at the table). Still I await 2.6 to be able to ditch tech. Anyways, sounds like a nice work, that I would possibly incorporate in my ruleset, if I'll be making one (2.6 not earlier, I just want techless ruleset). Though one thing I do not like much in your "release notes" is experience levels, I in general find them to be mostly bullshit in grand strategy game like civ, and expanding that seems like a bad idea. I would probably have only single vet level, adding at most 50% bonuses and only obtainable through combat. But thats just my take, on rpgish shit in grand strategy game.

Though to be fair I see some logic in your idea, better cities can maintain better units. But there is a problem with that. Unit ownership can very easily be changed by setting home city, while that will not affect veteran level at all (well I would guess one might try to do that with Lua scripting, but I'm not sure if all needed hooks are there to achieve that).

On thing that is undeniably great is units requiring buildings, there is 0 reason for that to not be the case in any ruleset. And that, as is probably evident from some of my posts, pissed me to no end for long time how some backwater just occupied village can produce same stuff as top city in the world (and in same time non the less!).
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby Corbeau » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:00 pm

morphles wrote:Though to be fair I see some logic in your idea, better cities can maintain better units. But there is a problem with that. Unit ownership can very easily be changed by setting home city, while that will not affect veteran level at all (well I would guess one might try to do that with Lua scripting, but I'm not sure if all needed hooks are there to achieve that).


I don't see that as a problem. I understand what you are getting at, I can have one super-city to produce units and all others simply to maintain them. Well, the thing is, this one super-city still has to produce them and also it takes time to build all those improvements. People who have several super-cities will always be in advantage compared to those who have only one, or none.

Besides, maintenance comes from the nation money pool, not the city's.

BTW, where is the description regarding 2.6? More precisely, where can I find more info about what you are talking about? (No tech possibility)
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby morphles » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:44 am

[quoteBesides, maintenance comes from the nation money pool, not the city's.][/quote]
That is probably worse! This meanse if building maintenance is expensive enough it might be worth wile not having them and saving on maintenance. As for build time, well you can use that ridiculous buy feature :), I know its not that simple and probably it wont be that bad still.

BTW, where is the description regarding 2.6? More precisely, where can I find more info about what you are talking about? (No tech possibility)

I was unable to find that. But some time ago I was discussing such things with devs on irc. And was complaining that requirements for unit building are not inline with how other requirements are specified (effects, and I think now structures). And as far as I can remember they said that there are plans for that, though not so long ago I was trying to find bug/requirement/ticket for that and did not manage it. In any case that version is rather far off for now :)
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby morphles » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:16 am

Yesterday I just had one more minor though. Though thats just food for thought not that it is better way to achieve what you are trying to do.

You said you are making units cheaper, instead I would opt to make city production larger, in effect it would be the same, though it would very likely involve more work. But I think that it would give "finer granularity" that might be useful, esp in future of if some balancing needs to be done. Though I'll admit that it's more of theoretical concern, as it seem in current rulesets smallest shield increments fro stuff is 10 (IIRC, maybe something has 5, but I do not remember any object having production requirement that does not end in 0). So as I said, more food for though than some solid advice, still maybe you'll find this interesting.


Ah and I just remembered why I wanted that in my ruleset. I wanted that to make buying as impractical as possible (I even asked devs for an option to allow to specifying cost multiplier when buying), as I find buying mechanic quite detrimental to game. Though I understand why it was put there, I still do not approve it, in my eyes it makes for far less strategic game, when you can just pop shit out whenever you need it. More over other great strategy games do fine without it, for example "Space Empires" (III in my case as it's only installment I have played), and best strategy game so far "Stars!" :) (well not necessarily best, but it is insanely good in some, important, regards!). If enemy is coming for you and you have nothing for defense you screwed previously, deal with it. This oh I'll just pop couple of defenders for next turn and I'll be alright is annoying as hell.

So yeah, more ideas...
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby Corbeau » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:30 pm

Hm, good points.

I'm guessing all it would require would be to adjust terrain production and pollution levels.
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Re: Work in Progress: "RealCiv ruleset"

Postby morphles » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:48 pm

One must be careful with adjusting terrain production levels, I think I also considered that. But for now freeciv has problems with that. The way it is implemented (city view, or tile output enabled use sprites for numbers), it can not show more than one digit per production item (shield/food/commerce), meaning no matter what when viewing city you will only see 9 at max (or maybe just last digit of two digit number). I'm not sure how it all works with right-click information, as it uses regular font and not sprite, so likely it has no such limitation. However right click info has other problem, it shows tile output only, that is base tile value + any bonuses from improvements/tech, but if city has some special buildings that improve yields even more it is not visible in right click info AFAIK.

Though this was some time ago. But I have strong doubts that it changed with 2.5.
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