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Realism Mod

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Realism Mod

Postby Le Bashar » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:58 am

I'm working on a mod which use somes of 2.2 features.

I have updated this post to give the current version of this mod (last update 20 october 2010)

ftp://downloads.fiabitat.com/yhdgztrk/realismod20102010.7z

It is design for use with 2.2.0 or 2.2.2


Objectives of this mod
1-Improve the realism of military units to make more fun and strategic the game. So we have more of less 4 units at each era. Infantery (cheap, strong, slow), heavy cavalery (costly, strong in open ground, fast), light cavalery (cheap, weak but fast in all terrain), and siege stuff (only usefull for breaking city wall or fortress). All fast units as the IZOC flag, so in battle, they have a new powerfull use : go behind ennemy and make ZOC, or destroy ennemy economy behind the front line.
2-Make the game more fun in early ages (and the orther also)
3-Improve the realism of the tech tree, because the choices of the civ2-like are sometimes very weird and too many "occidental"
4-Improve the realism of the terrain, for give no more need of terraform, and for delete the weird "temperate area" dictatorship of the original civ game (tropical tiles should always be far more productive the temperate, as long as there is enough water)

In summary : improve realism

In detail :

Unit's cost are reduced, you can build more, and you need build more because it will be difficult to defend yourself against all those ZOC fast ennemies cavalery units.

Building cost are greatly reduced, but maintain cost Highly rised. So, you must choice a tax rate enought to maintain building, or simply sell those you don't have really need. It will be fast to rebuild them when you can, or when you have a real need. It is especially true for barrack : dreadfull maitain cost. Don't even imagine you can build one in all your city. Maybe you can maintain 2 ou 3 for all your empire so, sell them as soon as you have made peace.

Wonders are in majority become "smallwonder", and the effect of greatwonder are reduce

Tile production greatly increase. Forest-type produce enough without improvement for small city or early age empire. In modern eras, flat-type with improvement will be better.

Trade route removed, caravan only serve to speed up building

Attack city don't kill cityzens

Done
- New tech tree
- New terrains
- New units
- New wonders and buildings (or modifyed ones)

In progress
- Balancing of units
- Balancing tiles production
- Make the game use the news terrain with the map generator (I need help for this, if you know how this is work)
- Improve pictures for the news terrains (especially temperate forest and hot hills)
- Make new picture for terrain improvements, especially an irrigated version of all hills
- Modifications of all governements

In project
- Change the weird climate change effect of the global warming/nuclear winter
- Make a amplio iso ex for use with this mod
- Found a way to make the AI able to playing with this (ambitious, isn't it ? :roll: )
Le Bashar
 

Realism Mod

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:36 am

That sound like good Idea if you make it I will play. 8-)
Guest
 

Realism Mod

Postby Le Bashar » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:50 am

It is already playable, even if I don't test if the IA player work well in modern period.

I have not updated the units description in the help of the game, so I give here some :

http://i49.tinypic.com/2w3dfr6.jpg

I have classified them in order to appearance. Each *** lines are major breaknought that make hitpoint x2, and add 1 to firepower (not always, but is the principle).

NAVAL :

galley -> coastal first boat. can travel in river.
trireme -> coastal war galley. fast and strong attack. can travel in river.
sail -> high sea transport boat. slow, weak, but can avoid trireme with high see escape.
caravels -> high sea more large boat than sail. bigger defense against trireme boarding, but always also slow and quite weak.
carracks ->big caravels with high castle in prow and stern for bowmen. High deck able too defend well against triremes boarding. but not very good for attack other boats.
***
Galleon ->first boat with gunpowder, no more need of trireme, finally outclassed. It is the first boat since galley can fight and transport as well.
Frigate ->first line heavy galleon, design for war and sea superiority. strong but expensive.
Corsairs ->fast ship, quite furtive, no need of shield support but money supports. There can't bear attacked by frigate but they can avoid them and strike by surprise. good for fight down those slow cheap galleon.
steam frigate ->less numerous canon but more accurate and powerful, and steam engine. All of these make those boats able to outclass old frigates.
***
ironclad ->intermediate small armored boat. unable to catch theirs equals (more defense than attack) but lethal for steam frigate. cheap, small, coastal, no transport.
***
dreadnought (cruisers) ->first modern cruisers. reduce all previous boat too training trajets.
cargo ->coal engine cargo. no weapons. cheap as "liberty ships".
u-boat ->first submarines, strikes with torpedoes. there are furtive, cheap, powerful, and fast but very fragile. (it's an false idea that submarine's are slow. there are always be as fast as their targets, often faster, even in dive). so yes, these unit make cruisers quite useless, and are cargo's nemesis. it's historical fact. also they can carry spy. cannot fight others submarines.
destroyers->cheaper than cruisers, but not very weaker. they use big torpedoes for fight vs cruisers, and medium canon against boats smaller than us. faster than old cruisers. useful for submarine's hunt.
battleships->state of the art heavy cruisers. very powerful and highly armored, but expensive...
carrier->first carriers can deploy only small aircrafts (fighters and small bomber). but they're already more useful than battleships. expensive. can not carry jet aircraft, but can carry helicopters.
***
nuclear submarines->state of the art submarines. they are very powerful, furtive, well protected, fast. they can carry missiles. they can fight other submarines with hunter seeker's heat torpedoes.
nuclear carrier->they can carry jet planes(only smaller ones).
modern frigate->boat for missile fighting. costless than submarines, but more spotable. can carry one helicopter. and missiles, obviously.
modern cargo->diesel engine modern cargo. outclass old coal's one by fast and capacity.

well, I think we cover all the naval history and improvement with this. Each "***" mean that older can hardly striking vs newer. even, as ex, old war boat vs modern transport boat. a trirem as no chance vs a coal cargo, even if she's success too catch him. it the same with u-boat vs modern frigate or nuclear submarines, etc.

LANDS :
3 settlers for follow eras. each as better defense and more hitpoint, too reproduce the fact that the high tech settler cannot caught by antic warriors, even if there are civilians : pioneers as hunting weapons, for example. even alexander's phalanx can do nothing vs american pioneers which travel with rifles... (even if we assume phalanx are not too afraid, and don't flee away at first strike back).
3 workers, same idea.
2 diplomats, and a spy. maybe the modern diplomats, I call "ambassador" can have more use than diplomat but I don't have much idea.
3 merchants, same idea than workers and settlers.

SPECIAL :
marines -> elite infantry. not just "amphibious". I think they can be also "city buster" if I have confirmation this can work. anyway many infantry unit has amphibious flag (legion, and all after musketeer)
paratroopers -> elite airborne infantry. city buster also, and furtive. they have not very strong offense, but can defend themselves and produce ZOC, for disturb enemy moving and help conventional army make his offensive. they can be used for defend encircle area, also. I want to make them well defend against aircraft, but I think the AEGIS flag is too much.
partisans->identical current one, except they're "bad city attacker". can not be too used as offensive troops. they should be furtive, also.
fanatics->idem current. bad city defender, maybe "missile" flag, for make them suicide's squads.

MISSILES :

cruise missiles->ground to ground medium range missile.
nuclear missile->intercontinental nuclear headed missile.
intercontinental missile->idem with high explosive non-nuclear head.
strike missile->short range missile for anti-aircraft purpose. work also against boat or other unit.

LAND :
warriors -> hunter packed for military usage. neolithic weapons...
horsemen -> horsemen hunter, weak but fast. (1 tile speed but lighter)
phalanx -> bronze's age multipurpose warriors. they're good as defence even as attack. (remember what's alexander did with them). I choice too mix all foot warriors of this era (archer, hoplites, skirmirchers, etc.) because they are also used mixed actually. a lonely phalanx does not make much sense, and the purpose of civ is not to make a highly details tactical game, but strategical I think.
horsemen -> war trained bronze age horse men. not very strong but fast. (not strong because they haven't stirrups) (1 tile speed, lighter)
chariot -> without the discover of stirrups, the only way for use the speed of horses, is to use chariot for javelin launcher. fast, but only useful in plains. (2 tiles speed, not lighter)
catapult -> strong siege machine. break city wall. expensive, defensles and slow.
===> here there are bronze's age units. one infantry, one fast horse for hunting and scouting, one heavy mounted for rule the plains battlefields, and one war machine for city assault. In my mind, all horses unit are "IZOC", so they are used in battle to overrun slower infantry unit. But infantry are cheaper, and often more powerful. infantry are used as well for attack or defend, but in this era, there are better for attack (unless beyond city walls). heavy mounted unit has same stats than infantry, but more movement. cost very most. maybe I will make then "bad city defender" (how use a chariot behind city wall ?).
***
legion -> early iron age warriors. more powerful for attack than phalanx. they can also make amphibious attack from trireme.
horsebowmen -> lack of stirrups made the choice of fill horsemen with small bow. not very powerful but fast and useful for hunting down lonely injured warriors.
bow chariot -> chariot lightweight, faster than older's. fill with two men, one for drive, and one for strike with bow. useless in difficult terrains.
siege tower -> strong siege unit. slow and expensive. can defend also. maybe prefer old catapult for poor defended city with walls.
===>a new version for each unit role. the older one are replace, except catapult (less effective against legion, but siege tower very very expensive).

soldier -> middle iron age soldier. more defense, but less attack. pikemen. costless than legions (which can be always product)
paladin -> replace horsebowmen. (not historically accurate but I like the picture)
knight -> mounted soldier version. replace chariot. stirrups at last discovered give mounted soldier high velocity charge capability, and they now use long pike and no more bow.
trebuchet -> powerful siege machine. very expensive. replace catapult.
===>in middle iron age, it is more easy to defend than to attack. trebuchet are essential for strike city. without, you should better do long time siege with cheap soldiers than bloody assault.
***
hallebardier -> last iron age soldier, some early gunpowder weapon for us. from this point, all infantry unit have "pikemen" flag.
fedaykins -> replace paladins. fast horsemen without armor, using sword and early gun weapons.
bombard -> first gunpowder canon are not very powerful. they're throw stone bullets. less dangerous than trebuchet, but costless.
===>this age is a turning point. bad time for horsemen...
***
musketeer -> well defended, but nearly unable too attack other musketeers. they can do amphibious attack from galleon or frigate, and all later infantry can do the same.
hussar -> mounted musketeers. from this point there is no more difference between fast light horsemen and heavy's. heavy's armored horsemen vanished since real usable gunpowder weapons.
canon -> first real canon. essential for destroy musketeers in defence position. vulnerable to hussar.
===>we are goes toward "war position". it is more and more easy to defend and difficult to attack because power of guns.
***
fusilier -> rifle are always one shot, but can be filled by cylinder head whose give faster shot.
cavalry -> they're not use heavy rifle but small one likes winchesters. small bullets and range, but higher fire rate.
artillery -> canon are more accurate and fire explosives shell. really dreadful. the golden age of war position and bloody mass going-to-death assaults.
tank -> early armor, like WWI one's. not very good, but useful as new "heavy armored horsemen". cannot destroy city walls.
***
infantry -> WWII like soldiers. they are better than fusilier, and move faster with the generalization of trucks. this is now mobile war.
half-track -> light armored fast vehicles. used for scouting and support side's main offensives.
armor -> real armor, they're are fast, powerful, well protected. but expensive. they're outclass old tanks. destroy city walls, as well as other mobile guns vehicles.
artillery -> powerful and cheap. used with lot infantry, after strong armor blitzkrieg for destroy cores of resistances.
canon automobile -> armor with bigger gun but immobile turret. cheap than armor. can be used as armor killer, or speed artillery to follow armor fast pierce through enemy territory. need escort.
heavy armor -> bigger armor, like 1960's ones.
anti-aircraft armor -> armor with anti air guns, for escort armor.
***
MBT (main battle tank) -> state of the art armor. they are electronic assisted, well protected with reactive armour plating against rockets. very powerful, but very expensive.
missile launcher -> missile era has erased used of artillery. now we launch missile without being in the enemy's line of fire.
Mec. Inf. -> no more huge infantry army. modernism is small professionals soldiers corps with excellent equipment.

SPECIAL DCA :
small DCA : machine gun used too counter fighters. useless vs heavy bombers.
DCA : big gun in DCA mount for shooting down heavy bomber. not very accurate, though.
missile DCA : heat seekers missiles give no chance to bombers.

eco-citizen : not implemented yet
Cyborg Inf, and Drone Inf (maybe in english it isn't the word for robotic pilotless engines). -> future war units. beware not destroy the whole world if using this !

AIRBORNE :
airplane -> early airplane used for scouting. they have no need of runway (like helicopter).
***
fighters -> WWII small aircraft can shoot other, fight bomber, and attack lonely ground target. no need of runway. can land on carrier.
small bomber -> cannot fight other airplane, but bombing ground. enough small to make carriers landing. no need of runway.
heavy bomber -> need a runway. High altitude bomber. can not landing on carriers.
nuclear bomber -> same as previous but use nuclear bomb (with manhattan project but before rocketry)
***
jet fighter -> reactor make old airplanes useless. from this point all aircraft need runway for landing and takeoff .
jet bomber -> can not fit in carriers. (historically design for carry nuclear bomb. I don't know if we can make unit "nuclear bomb", and if it is interesting for gaming).
***
fighter/bomber -> supersonic airplane with flexible wing geometry for take mission of interception or bombing (like f-14). carrier ok. outclass no-supersonic jet airplanes.
***
air superiority fighter -> numerous new supports systems makes aircraft more easy to pilot but also rise the cost of those vehicles. not fit in carriers. (f-15, su-27)
interceptor -> smaller and cheaper, the interceptor has been design to fight vs air superiority fighter, but in defense's territory missions. they're shorter range but mass production reduce the cost. (mirage 2000, Mig-25, f-1 8-) . carrier ok.
***
furtive interceptor -> they are not more powerful than others, but furtive. the problems is this technology is dreadful expensive (anti- detection device need constant repairing...). carrier ok.
furtive bomber -> like interceptor : terrible cost. not fit in carriers.

OTHER
helicopter -> powerful anti-armor vehicle, which can carry men directly into city or assault. no need of runway. quite vulnerable of fighters.
furtive heli -> no comment

tank-killer aircraft -> a cheap vehicle design for support ground unit vs MBT and other armored units. You need air control before using this or you'll regret, maybe. This airplane can't fights others and make easy target for all anti-air stuffs.

Awacs ->no need of explanation
Le Bashar
 

Realism Mod

Postby airdrik » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:44 pm

Interesting ruleset. I love the detail put in.

Perhaps a suggestion would be to make use of the Bombard unit ability which allows such units to attack other units at a distance without retaliation (unless there is another bombard unit in the defending position). You may need to do some experimenting to find the right numbers (you can configure all of the standard numbers plus a bombard rate). Adding bombard to appropriate units would definitely improve the game play.

Also, you should reduce most of the building costs. Cities only make about their size in taxes per turn (more or less, depending on how many tax/luxury-boosting buildings they have) so any cost greater than about 5 is prohibitively expensive (read: no one will build it) until the cities are at least size 7-9. It is nice that the tax/luxury-boosting buildings are free though (since they pay for themselves, you might as well hide the cost), but they still don't give you sufficient to build more than just a small handful of the other buildings before their upkeep exceeds your income.
airdrik
 

Realism Mod

Postby Le Bashar » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:12 am

Thanks for contribution.

I will surely use the bombard flag as soon as I really understand how it work. It seem interesting.

For the building, I haven't explain, but I try to change the original system which is weird and (for me) boring. For example : why there is a need of many century for building a market ? and why the market need public fund to maintain ? I have try another way to simulate the cities :
- civilian building are cheap to build and maintain
- city wall has heavy cost, but not huge maintain
- war training facilities are cheap to build but very costly to maintain
- trade building has no maintain cost, and are quite cheap (so everybody will surely built them in all cities)
- research building has big maintain cost, but no as big as military's

The idea is you can't build military high quality training base in all your cities. You need numerous "trading cities" to has as much money to make some cities military, or research. You need also a tax rate which is rather 20% lux / 60% tax / 20% science than 70% science / 30% tax
It never seem realist to me to can make a civilization with 70% of is budget allowed to the research, no ?

With my change you always can do that, but you can't be able to do huge trained army in the same time. And if you choice to do war, maybe you will have a choice to do between training facility and research facility, and between lux tax and money tax, between hapiness and military power...

I don't know if I have found the good proportions, but that's the idea.

Furthermore, I have change some building with the new "handiwork" tech. handiwork give two building, the ex industry, and the ex recyling center. Industry is rename artisans and recycling center sewer system. This give the ability to make huge producing citie in early ages, but with pollution production. If you want to have big prod and no pollution, it is also possible, but cost many money to maintain. But if you have good trading developement, or good trading special resources, it can be a good option.

So whith high cost to some strategic building, you should decide to build them for a period, and destroy after use. On the contrary, civilian building like granary, aqueduct or temple can be built on time for once.

This are reasons for stranges cost for building in this mod

But I think for best result, this need a different trading road system (I don't studied the rewonder solution for now, but I will do)
Le Bashar
 

Realism Mod

Postby airdrik » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:45 pm

That's definitely an interesting alternative way of handling the buildings - make them in general cheaper up-front (production costs - most buildings' costs should be adjusted so you can build them in a couple of turns), while making certain buildings more expensive in the long run (maintenance costs) to represent the costs required to get their full benefit. Research grants, education credits, etc. to get the full value of the universities you build, military expenditures, etc. Though you could also argue that the research grants, etc are covered by the trade that goes into science (which brings up an interesting alternative to the current lux/tax/science design - instead of allocating percentages you only generate tax and buildings and specialists convert taxes into other output).
your ideas about the increased cost do make sense strategically - if you want the benefit you need to pay the price, and you shouldn't build too many or you won't be able to support them. However, from a cost-benefit analysis point-of-view it seems that the benefit for building many of the more costly (in maintenance) buildings isn't sufficient to warrant the cost of building it. Perhaps if each production improvement doubled (or more) the number of shields rather than increased by 50% (similarly for the science improvements), or the military buildings boosted production of military units by 50% (I don't think this is possible in the current system) and produced level 2 veterans (rather than just producing level 1 veterans).

In the default rules it does cost quite a bit to get a city fully outfitted for science (building library, university and research center) or production (factory, power plant, manufacturing plant, offshore platform if near ocean, plus pollution-reducing buildings to compensate). For this reason, I don't often build buildings other than the tax/lux buildings and the various buildings that are free after building Adam's Trading Co., and maybe a couple others as determined per-city. If there were a bigger bang-for-your-buck then it would definitely be worth building some of the others on a case-by-case basis.
airdrik
 

Realism Mod

Postby Le Bashar » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:40 am

It is exactly my tarjet. What I would really change is the uselessness of most building as long as you haven't reach modern era in the original civ. I want most antic building can be and must be used in antiquity.

Furthermore, I want cities be specialized in relation to their ressources.

I will think about your suggestion for building bonus output.

For military I will test if the cost is too huge or not, but there is somes nice idea already which compel to deal whith it :
- modern heavy boats can't be built in a city without port facility
- big planes require an airport
- many modern units need industry
So in modern era without high industrialized cities, you can built only infantery. But they are cheap and good for defend.

Well, I work also in the modification of the tiles output, to make them more useful in early ages, and more realist (tropical tiles far much more productive, for exemple). So trade income is better, and it reduce the gap between normal maintain cost and this ones.
Le Bashar
 

Realism Mod

Postby pjtr » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:34 am

Interesting,

I started such a project a long time ago. It never left the design stage, but I made a solid approach towards unit balance of both Freeciv 2.0 standard ruleset and my EPOCH ruleset units. The latter had approximatly 90 units of ten epochs.

The basic concept of the EPOCH ruleset quite similar to Your approach:

1. Old units become obsolete and will loose out in direct combat. No more barbarians beating up some tank brigades. However, they still might beat up a Roman Infantry Legion with some luck.

2. Some functional units like settlers are not availible in later stages of the game, simulating that cities can not be founded and grow to great size after a certain time. The technology of Mobile Homes however allows population to migrate from one city to the other.

Unfortunatly, I did not balance any buildings or did any design work on the tech tree.

If You are interested in it, I might try to dig it out.

Cheers,

pjtr
pjtr
 

Realism Mod

Postby Le Bashar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:45 am

I'm interested :)

If you can retrieve your old work, I will study it with pleasure to found some ideas I can use to improve my mod.
Le Bashar
 

Realism Mod

Postby guestengla » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:09 pm

Great modpack!

I have played a game using the linked .7z-file above. I like it a lot.

I like the new buildings and the improvement system. It's very interesting to try something new.

Easily researched republic, and "free" economy improvements (marketplace, bank ..) make for a really powerful economy. There are a lot of improvements and possibilities. Of course it is a new ruleset, so I don't know what everything is good to use for, but I still have the feeling that there are more possibilities to choose from than what you have money or time to use.. so there is room for strategical choices.

I like the graphics, sometimes the unit graphics are too crude/unsmoothed, but many are very good. I also like that improvement graphics are smaller than the unit graphics: it is easy to select both of them in the quick selector, but units are bigger.

I also like that at any given time, only a few units are available.

I think I must have found a bug, since some units can never be built, and never are shown in the city build list (not even with "Show future targets"). I could never build a Spy, and never build a Fighter. I suspect that no units from the Air_small or Air_small_jet are available. Might be similar for the unit class Spy, I don' t know why.

I played all the way to Clean Warfare that I am researching right now.

Some of the wonders are really powerful. Military Discipline (upgrade 1 unit each turn) is powerful, given that units are obsoleted very often. Cultural Revolution is also very powerful (3 happy in each city).

Many units have unnatural names like 'Steam_

Some spelling corrections:

Peasans -> Peasants
Hallebardiers -> Halberdiers
Canon -> Cannon

I also think unit names should be without '_', but there might be some technical reason you use that, that I don't know about..

Some ideas:

In 2.2, you can change how the timeline speeds up in effects (when it is 50 years, 25, 20, 10 etc per turn), so you can make it slower if you want.
guestengla
 

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