Accounts e-mail HP

Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ problems]

Anything about Greatturn in general, not related to a specific match.

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby Corbeau » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:00 pm

morphles wrote:People who do not play to win get on my nerves. You wasting everyones time. At least thats my opinion. You might not expect to win due to your skill or some such, but to not try to win... is despicable.

I never said I'm not trying to win. Your single-mindedness is getting on my nerves. And your hermetic way of thinking, not taking into account what other people may have on their mind and, as a result, not even comprehending what they think or try to say, is despicable.
User avatar
Corbeau
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby morphles » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:17 pm

To be fair I do not give much shit what's on others peoples minds. Actions are what metters;) As what they try to say, I analyze everything quite strongly, maybe you do not sound the way you think you sound?
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby ifaesfu » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:49 pm

Corbeau wrote:Spoilt for you, maybe.
Like I said many time, a lot of this is a matter of personal preference. Don't treat stuff like this as universal law. The fact that you don't like something doesn't mean it shouldn't *be* like that.

Ok, it isn't a problem and it doesn't spoil the games. Why are we talking about it? Let's join together. ¡Viva la vida!

Morphles, do you really see the size and the balance of the alliances as a problem in games such as Greatturn, where there are many human players?
If so, what can be done with real settings?
I think there is no way to limit this kind of behaviour and that's why I use to propose settings that limit the power of the alliances. That's all.
User avatar
ifaesfu
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:03 pm
Location: Huelva, Spain

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby morphles » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:15 pm

What a hell?

Yes I do seem them as problem, not the presence or size or power directly, but that as I said after joining alliance there is basically negative incentive to leave it, thus alliances grow by accretion until all players/huge majority of players are absorbed; and they never leave. This all means that alliances do indeed consolidate large amounts of power and in so doing pressurize you to join one too.

I told you about real settings in very first post, where I explained rationale and possible solution in quite detailed way. As I said adding more victory conditions is easy (and I'm quite familiar with freeciv by now, worked on rulesets, with Lua even; also wrote a patch/feature albeit very minor so I can't really brag about it). Complicates game just a little while it should give much more complex and rich game play (when balanced). Various proposed settings, by or others, seem inadequate, and seem quite kludgy. So I do not see them as addressing problem in satisfactory way. If/when tech trading/stealing becomes tech bonus based, it could be used to improve situation, but still it would only slightly improve it (albeit in much nicer way than currently available "hacks").

So I'll reiterate: additional/alternative win conditions should be given a try.
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby Corbeau » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:24 pm

morphles wrote:Yes I do seem them as problem, not the presence or size or power directly, but that as I said after joining alliance there is basically negative incentive to leave it, thus alliances grow by accretion until all players/huge majority of players are absorbed; and they never leave. This all means that alliances do indeed consolidate large amounts of power and in so doing pressurize you to join one too.


This is perfectly normal human and group behaviour. It is well described and documented in political and social sciences and there is absolutely nothing that you will ever, ever be able to do about it. If you remove all mechanical benefits to an alliance, absolutely nothing will happen, everything you say here will continue happening. If you try to *destimulate* alliances by mechanical means, or try to stimulate "lone wolves", you will simply stimulate creation of "non-official" alliances that will be just as firm.

If you do anything of the above mentioned, it will be raping the mechanics, trying to coerce people into behaviour that is not natural to them and the game will lose a part of its appeal and flexibility.

This is how things are. You can love it or leave it. There are some things you can't tweak by tweaking rulesets.
User avatar
Corbeau
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby ifaesfu » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:48 am

:cry: Once again no real settings. We have civ2-civ3, defaul, civ2, multiplayer,etc. rulesets and freeciv 2.4.2 client. Any proposition?
Anyway, I don't think the superwonder can change anything.
User avatar
ifaesfu
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:03 pm
Location: Huelva, Spain

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby Corbeau » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:04 am

ifaesfu wrote::cry: Once again no real settings. We have civ2-civ3, defaul, civ2, multiplayer,etc. rulesets and freeciv 2.4.2 client. Any proposition?


I'm not sure what exactly you mean.

As for wonders, I'd also be in favour "small wonders", for reasons someone else already stated. A lot of players, disbalance, and some of them are useless in multiplayer game.

Basically, wonders as they are now were created for a single-player game and need to be revamped for FreeCiv. Making them "small", meaning non-unique, would be one way of doing it.
User avatar
Corbeau
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby ifaesfu » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:22 am

Corbeau wrote:
ifaesfu wrote::cry: Once again no real settings. We have civ2-civ3, defaul, civ2, multiplayer,etc. rulesets and freeciv 2.4.2 client. Any proposition?


I'm not sure what exactly you mean.

I think it's crystal clear: is there any setting that you can use to try to (if not solve) decrease the problems of the alliances in this kind of games? But a real setting, something that you can do using the game options before a match or maybe changing one or two values in the ruleset.
User avatar
ifaesfu
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:03 pm
Location: Huelva, Spain

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby Corbeau » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:40 am

Oh, ok. I believe I've answered that. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
User avatar
Corbeau
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Problems with alliances[& probably some other civ proble

Postby monamipierrot » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:51 pm

ifaesfu wrote:Too much rumbling here. Settings, settings and only doable settings. The rest is a toast on the sun.

This section is called "General Discussion" about "Greatturn". General means general, so I think it is good if discussion are wide and address things from a large perspective. Other thing is if I went off-topic, and I already apologized for it.
monamipierrot
Co-Admin of GT01, GT10-Hex.
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:43 pm
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron