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Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby Corbeau » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:55 pm

Oh, just stop talking and set the date :P
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby Evan » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:47 am

Hi morphles,
I can't remember if you used to play Longturn, but I was wondering if it's possible to modify the individual tech costs as they appear in the rulesets, like the ones provided on the GitHub site.

You probably know all this already, but maybe then for others:
Go to

longturn.org

Then under "Technical" click on "github", select "games", click on one, eg. "LT34", then "data/LT34", then "techs.ruleset".
Then if you scroll down you'll see each of the techs has a cost, eg alphabet is 10.
And then in the "effects.ruleset" towards the end you'll see "[effect_tech_cost_base] name = "Tech_Cost_Factor" value = 3"

3x10 = 30 bulbs as it is in the game.
I think that's how it works, I'm not sure.

Are you able to play around with this?
I had a look at some of the ruleset files from GT11, and it seems to be the same kind of thing.
If this can't be done can someone tell me why so I can understand how it works.
Thanks.
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby wieder_fi » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:16 am

I'm not quite sure what kind of game you are planning, but looking at LT34 files may not work that well. I understood that you are planning a 2.5 game and since LT34 is a 2.3 game, there may be some differences.

Anyway, 8x tech cost sounds like really much to me. Then again if you are looking for a really long game, that would probably be a good pick. LT34 has a tech cost on 0.8x so that would be 10x more expensive and researching the first tech would cost 240 bulbs :D

LT34 was planned to last about 120-150 turns. Have you given a thought about how many turns you would like to play this game? I've noticed that with LT games people have become bored after 200 turns because at that point half of the people already know they have lost. Then again it might be interesting to watch a 400 turn game :)
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby Corbeau » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:47 am

wieder_fi wrote:people have become bored after 200 turns because at that point half of the people already know they have lost.

Hence my suggestion about the League with points based on the final rank of the player ;) Yeah, offtopic :P
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby morphles » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:53 pm

Well some good news first, I found that I was silly in some way and I indeed can have fixed cost techs. Thus tech upkeep seems can be made sensible, though it definetly has some bugs and illogicalities (from looking at code) those will mostly not affect me/us. Considering even that, I still get upkeep a bit off from what I would calculate knowing description and code of it. But I believe this is of no problem. In a mean time 2.5 seems to have come out in full, which is good. I hope to have it compiled on pi by the end of weekend. And iron out some more details of rules too.

@wieder_fi as I said mysqlf later 8x is too much. But one can forget that cost totally now :) all techs will cost 50 bulbs! foreva:) thats the good news. The bad news you'll be paying for upkeep significantly, do not expect to ever have more than 10 bulbs going towards new tech (well if I do everything right) unless you manage to amass ungodly amount of tech wonders, and shed all crap cities. Nice thing is taking your science capital and selling uni and library will likely set you back seriously, even if you manage to get it back. I believe game with proper tech upkeep will be much more interesting. Also alliance tech trade will be much much more complicated, as upkeep increases per city per tech. So if you have many cities getting couple of new techs without infrastructure to support them means that you will likely loose them quite quickly. Or at best your current research will stall seriously. Though obviously alliance is still better than no alliance, everyone needs a friend :).

I'll have to think about trade routes a bit too. Current situation is not very good with them ether.

As for game length 200 is likely tops for me too:) And I'll need to keep pi running for that much too. In any case I as I said, I might come up with some alt win condition that might change the appearance of the game significnatly (from top of head: player that constructs "<expensive small wonder that can't be rushed with caravans>" and keeps it alive for 20 turns wins), this might change how game progresses very significnatly. Is not that hard to setup with lua (obviously other players would know when player has constructed such wonder and where in any case this condition is just an example). Also I see little problem with score vitory at 200th turn. Maybe even set 200 turn limit right from the start.

Also the amount of damage one can do with previously described "taking science capital and selling science buildings" might make games "more explosive", breach of such city, with additional loss of couple important techs might turn the game much quicker than only temporary loss of city.

@evan thanks for that effect, missed it as I was looking only at game and techs, though it was not important in making costs constant, but it made everything more sensible by allowing techs cost exactly what is stated in their definition.
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby morphles » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:25 pm

So I setup my pi again. Will be compiling freeciv tonight (if I mange to get all settings as I want). Then some more ruleset testing and likely maybe after about a week we could think about starting a game :)
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby Evan » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:21 am

Hi morphles,

I've started playing a 2.5 game to get a feel for how the tech upkeep works (I'm using the standard in-game civ2civ3 ruleset).
If I come across anything worth pointing out I'll write a post.

I have notived that the ingame help often refers to new elements being present only if the ruleset allows it, and I'm not exactly sure which ones are/aren't while I'm playing. The citizen nationality seems to be, but I can't find any reference to the 'Maglev' trains, even though the rail only gives 1/6 movement.

I'll play around a bit more and see what I find. I don't seem to have enough cities or techs yet to see the tech upkeep change from 0. I think the map/no. of players I chose for the setup is not the best for testing things out - just not enough room for nations to expand.
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby morphles » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:36 am

civ2civ3 has silly situation with tech upkeek, it is basically useless/pointless mostly, imo. You have to have crazy amount of techs or cities to see it. When I played it I got from maybe engineering/industrialization level, maybe, and it started minuscule. IMO if it is so low and so late there is no point in having it. Though with late techs it might ramp up significantly, I haven't finished that game.

As for maglev, doubt they are present in civ2civ3. Rails not giving infinite movement was very desirable feature by many afaik, and IMO it is very sensible thing, personally I find infinite movement silly and annoying. Though you still can do that with transports :D Haven't encountered nationality as I was rather peaceful.
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby Corbeau » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:54 am

Doesn't tech upkeep depend on the numbers you put into the formula?
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Re: Mini game to scrach some itch?:)

Postby morphles » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:36 pm

Yes it does, though there are just two numbers to put there :). In any case civ2civ3 chosen number is not that good IMO it tries to keep most of the tech game like in default/older versions. While adding some of upkeep, which probably will only noticeably matter for something like space ship level techs (that is I believe that only at that point you would get significant trouble from upkeep, but I might be wrong, considering that tech costs rise somewhat rapidly, it might start to matter from about nuclear power level techs).

In any case, my game will be entirely "upkeep based", constant tech cost, but you research output towards techs will always be somewhat significantly hindered by upkeep.

So I have freeciv server runing on my pi, and I'm even playing single player game while connected to it, all seems well. I also know how to setup authentication properly. So basically only game options need to be worked out. I'll see how much time I'll dedicate through the week to testing stuff, hopefully game can be started on next Sunday or Monday after that. I should at least get nick names of people who will play, I then can generate passwords and privmsg them. Or you can privmsg your passwords. Or better you can msg md5 hashes of your passwords, or if your pass is significantly long, you can even post hash here. Google it if it does not show up it might be good :). And disclaimer: Also pleas do not use passwords of any significance. I can not guarantee serious security for your passwords, and md5 hash that freeciv uses is rather weak anyways. In a sense if I come up with passwords for you there will be no such problem.

Though for now it seems there are only couple of players talking about the game, me, Evan and Corbeau. But you said you can invite some more? So it's about time for that :)
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