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Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end?

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Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end?

Postby Corbeau » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:50 pm

I just realised that, in all likelyhood, I will NEVER be able to transform land! This is a disgrace! Terraforming is one of the most interesting things in this game! I mean, seriously? Fusion Power? Guys? GUYS?!? Is there a higher power that I can appeal to?
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby Captain Clown » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:56 pm

You can aim for global warming and/or nuclear winter to transform land.
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby Corbeau » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:20 pm

Actually, I was aiming more at levelling mountains and hills and drying out seas.
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby Major Nimrod » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:57 pm

Captain Clown wrote:You can aim for global warming and/or nuclear winter to transform land.


LMAO ! :lol: nice one Capt'
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby morphles » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:00 pm

Actually I really like the idea of no transform. IMO its unrealistic, and very cheesy. Far more challenging and interesting to make do with what you have.
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby Major Nimrod » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:30 pm

I disagree. Land transformation is an integral part of the game. This particular ruleset has many quirks, and one which I don't agree with strongly is this particular aspect. The ability to transform allows players who have not been blessed with an exceptionally good starting position to eventually catch up to the other players. Yes, there is some logic to allowing only certain transformations to take place once certain techs are researched, but come on: waiting until nearly the end of the tech tree to change a swamp or jungle into something else is ridiculous.

If we were to base this in any realistic historical context, Europeans were heavily transforming Europe as far back as the Middle Ages (and, depending on who you ask, perhaps as far back as Ancient Rome). Huge swaths of forests were felled in order to create arable land. Same thing for swamp land, and let's not forget that the low countries wouldn't exist as they are today without extensive damns and canal building.

Well, that's my 2 cents ;)
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby Corbeau » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:09 am

morphles wrote:Actually I really like the idea of no transform. IMO its unrealistic, and very cheesy. Far more challenging and interesting to make do with what you have.

I made about five different suggestions about various stuff and, every time I mentioned that "it would be more realistic this way", it was answered (among others, by you, too) that "realism is less important than gameplayability". So, allow me to use the same argument here.

As for "cheesy", that's a personal judgement, not an argument.

As for "far more challenging and interesting", also, it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer flexibility and more options available, not playing with a fixed deck of cards.

On the other hand, can this be corrected by a simple ruleset change or it's necessary to dig into the source code?
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby ifaesfu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:10 am

I guess it can be easily changed in the ruleset.
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby morphles » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:15 am

Yes it's a ruleset thing. Yes realism is not the important part.

The ability to transform allows players who have not been blessed with an exceptionally good starting position to eventually catch up to the other players. Yes, there is some logic to allowing only certain transformations to take place once certain techs are researched, but come on: waiting until nearly the end of the tech tree to change a swamp or jungle into something else is ridiculous.


If you live long enough to see transform (in default) you do not really need much catch up imo. It's so far enough (even in default) that if terrain was your limit you'll have ether delt with those problems or others will have dealt with you, mostly. Some transformations are plainly illogical, no matter the tech (yes I know realism is not necessarily that important), transforming mountais or hills, or plains into hills is very very far fetched (not to say anything about then gaining prod from such synthetic hills). Junge is no problem irrigation turns it to swamp. Swamp aint so terrible, with irrigation it's close to plains with exception of trade. Also swamp hosts probably best special ever (int c2c3 at least) - peat.

As for history, you can cut down forrests with stone age workers no problem! Swaps well no argument, many have been drained (though it seems people are getting a bit sorry about that), as for "land reclamaition", will see how that works out in next 50 years or so:) Prognosis is that sea/ocean is about to do some reclamation of it's own.

As for "far more challenging and interesting", also, it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer flexibility and more options available, not playing with a fixed deck of cards.


I find this quite a moot argument. First of transform is quite far anyway, as stated, also you have transform by mine/irrigation anyways. Thirdly it is quite expensive for results it produces (and the time by which those are produced). There are many ways to flexible, this does not seem like one. You can seriously expect to do "catching" up that way. Also many people were crying for specialization for civs, well this is something like it!

Another important thing to note - gt9 is going with almos max specials, so any whining about terrain seems to be quite moot, cause resources are just that abundant.
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Re: Which party pooper placed land transformation at the end

Postby Corbeau » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:40 am

morphles wrote:
As for "far more challenging and interesting", also, it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer flexibility and more options available, not playing with a fixed deck of cards.


I find this quite a moot argument.

Not as moot as "far more challenging and interesting" ;)

First of transform is quite far anyway,

If you mean Engineers, no, they're not. I can reach Explosives in 12 steps now, while Fusion Power requires 60.

as stated, also you have transform by mine/irrigation anyways.

...and this would be an addition, giving more options and possibilities.

Thirdly it is quite expensive for results it produces (and the time by which those are produced).

Why don't you let the player who performs it (or doesn't) be the judge of that?

There are many ways to flexible, this does not seem like one.

Really? Please explain.

Also many people were crying for specialization for civs, well this is something like it!

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. This *is* specialisation, because some civs wold specialise for exploration and expansion and possibly the other two Xs, while others would turn inward and improve what they have, build up in the area tehy have.


Another important thing to note - gt9 is going with almos max specials, so any whining about terrain seems to be quite moot, cause resources are just that abundant.

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