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Random map?

Random map?

Poll ended at Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:36 pm

Yes, fractal generator
1
13%
Yes, fractal generator, with human preview
6
75%
Yes, island generator
0
No votes
Yes, heightmap generator
0
No votes
No
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Random map?

Postby morphles » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:36 pm

Personally I just admire procedurally generated things. Fractal maps of freeciv are one of admirable thins imo:)

Though they have to be largish to appreaciate the details. And ititial placement of start possitions can be just stupid sometimes (sticking one player into some dead end tiny peninsula), while other near the shore with trereame reachable second comntinent that is empty.

This is the reason why is suggest human should choose map from some randomly generated fractall maps, so that there would be no such inballanced start positions. And maybe general structure of the map could be chosen so that map would look interesting and play interesting. (I can post some example images of what I consider interesting fractal maps)
Last edited by morphles on Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random map?

Postby Davide » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:35 pm

morphles wrote:I can post some example images of what I consider interesting fractal maps

Yes do it!
When in Greatturn maps have to be randomly generated, I usually generate a pool of 10-15 maps, and then pick the most strategic or interesting one, without giving any preview as it could somewhat spoil the game.
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Re: Random map?

Postby Major Nimrod » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:51 pm

Oh, it's been a long time since I've played a regular, fractal, randomized map :D
"Big Brother is watching you" - George Orwell
"Shh! I'm Hunting Wabbits" - Elmer Fudd
"What a Nimrod" - Bugs Bunny

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Re: Random map?

Postby morphles » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:40 pm

So i generated some maps to show what issues sometimes arise that need human checking or human start position placement. Also some features that I find really nice/cool, and some variety.

maps.png

1st map would be really awesome with that bay at top right and all and second continent to race to, however that land "bridge", which would let triremes reach second continent really breaks balance, cause player(s) starting close to it will have huge advantage on expansion.

2. Basically similar situation with different arrangement

3. Map that looks to almost be made of two copy pasted parts, used low land content (15%), overall seems quite interesting and balanced with right player distribution (obviously by human)

4, 5 Maps generated "abusing" certain feature of fractal generation - setting place each player in separate continent, makes generator generate smaller "features" landmasses. But if you get even something like 10 players with that setting you might end up with total mess of tiny stuff. But it is nice to use 2-5 players to get nice archipelago type map with smallish continents/islands, but still of comfortably hefty size. Someone just needs to put some start locations in somewhat balanced positions, and of course disregard the number of players that was used to generate map.

6. Now that map just looks awesome/kick ass! Look at those two bays and imagine naval battles going on there!, especially the right one having such a narrow exit. I just love such narrow passes, somehow I think they are of big strategic value, cause in reality they are, to be fair not sure how such things translate into civ games. Also has nice mini archipelago near the continent. Probably did not varrant zoom in still, made it :)
6.png


7. Again nice bay bocked with island, thus having two exits from the bay, continents also divide global ocean into north and south having only two small passes between them. Look at this, isn't it pretty? :)
7.png


8. Again similar situation, only this time it also has this make your own passage zone:) at least two cities need to be placed on right squares to connect north and south. Wouldn't you fight for such spots? :)
8.png


9. Has do yourself an exit of this lake/bay kinda situation, with multiple location for exits. Also three continents, two larger possibly suitable for initial placement of players and smaller rounder "island" for colonization fights.
9.png


"End notes". Maps were generate in freeciv 2.3, not that it matters much really (though generator might be tweaked, also ruleset can have effect on how map will look, all else being equal). All these maps are rather big, 50k tiles. Thats one issue with such random generation, though I'd say certain minimum size is needed even for different generators(and scenarios), as otherwise its hard to get much "appreaciatable detail". That said I'd think maps even from something like 30k should have enough of everything, and should be fillable comfortably with current community size. (water content can help fine tune landmass). Sometimes I just so impressed with generated maps, features like mentioned seem to be really interesting, and there are quite a bit more possible variety.

Minor side note, I find default "number of hills" a bit too large as in some places wast areas are just hills/mountains, I did not adjust that here, as its not important for shoreline, but when generating map for game I think that should be adjusted too.
Last edited by morphles on Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random map?

Postby Davide » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:55 pm

That's indeed a shareable taste for maps : )

If the generator requires a large canvas to shape up a featureful map rich of details, the option landmass can be adjusted to contain the magnitude of dry land; however with the current count of players per map, the map size perhaps shouldn't exceed 20-30k tiles - water included.

Alternatively, if those fine features shown in the screenshots can be achieved only by huge sizes, we can always shrink the map using the mapper generator :D
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Re: Random map?

Postby morphles » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:28 pm

So I checked how smaller maps look, fliped through bunch of 20k, 15k and 10k maps, there is enough of nice stuff to choose from at all of those sizes so I think comunity would have no problem filling such maps. Wouldn't go much below 10k though. But to be fair some 10k maps looked quite impressive, probably because feature size to map size ratio is increased.
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Re: Random map?

Postby Davide » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:17 pm

Poll ended!

Fractal generator with human preview for the win.
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Re: Random map?

Postby morphles » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:19 pm

WeeHee! :)
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Re: Random map?

Postby monamipierrot » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:15 am

morphles wrote:WeeHee! :)


Hi Morphles,

I just came back after a 8 month-long winter to GreatTurn. One of the reason my ice defrosted is of course that random maps came back!!!!
In the last week I read some of your posts in the forum and I wonder if you did the same with me. The reason is that I fell we have the same tastes in many diferent aspects of this game, e.g. (not in any particular order):
- hexes
- anti-determinism
- I can't stand the rapture thing (althou I exploited it to the max in my last winning game)
- I love random pseudofractal worlds
- I don't like the whole alliance way the things go
- would love more balanced strength between ancient and modern units
- 9-fold movement in railroad
and so on...

however I don't agree with other of your visions, while I:
- I like ocean worlds with few land
- don't like broad vision and I do like 2x and 3x movements instead
- restrict infra would be a great add-on IMHO
- a wonderless game is not worth be playing (wonders give your civilization a specific character)

anyway, I wonder if you read some of this posts of mine:
- my posts in the thread viewtopic.php?f=65&t=569 (about maps and planetology)
- many of the Wishlist threads which are actually mine (viewforum.php?f=16)
- Proposals on Games, Tournaments, Rankings and Flavours (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=410&p=1375#p1375)
- New GT flavour: "Gaia" (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=411&p=1376#p1376)

Thanks, and let me know your ideas!
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Re: Random map? [outcome: random map]

Postby Davide » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:55 am

You won't guess, reading morphles' posts over the last few week I built up myself a mental picture of morphles' "persona" which for some time couldn't stop to periodically remember me of you :lol:

Anyway, after the defrost, a random map was due to finally alternate the scenarios trend.. and btw, teach all these guys a hard lesson by pressuring their borders with some "Fattipiuinlà" cities :lol:
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