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Disable trade routes

Disable trade routes

Poll ended at Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:23 pm

Yes, disable
3
38%
Cut income to 1/3
2
25%
Cut income to 50%
0
No votes
No, keep it!
3
38%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: Disable trade routes

Postby Major Nimrod » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:59 pm

BeckettTheIncompeten wrote:I really don't see why trade in general is such a pet peeve to people. To me I think trade routes are almost no different than a market, bank, or stock exchange, a long-term investment. Yes, there are some uneven features such as the initial trade award, which I think should be removed.

But other than those flaws, what more is a trade route compared to a market or bank?


I tend to agree. Trade is not broken at all. It's essential to winning the game! Geopolitical decisions must be made to take into account the affect on current or future trade routes. It adds much colour and complexity to the game. Removing it, or nullifying it because some people can't appreciate the importance to victory, seems like cow-towing to the wrong group of people.

In the later stages of the game, such as the ones that Monami referred to, it's all about Out-producing shield, research and gold in any way/shape or form possible. Trade is key, and those that don't realize this will suffer (rightly so!).

That being said, I'm fine with either halving OR keeping intact the trade bonus. Reducing it to near zero, or removing it entirely, are not in the overall best interests of the game, IMHO :)
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby morphles » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:43 pm

I hope you mean ongoing bonus and not one time. One time is quite weird to me and I would be for eliminatin it alltogether. It basically becomes way to convert production and some (travel) time into gold, but there already is coinage which converts production into gold! So I see it as needles duplication. Now routes themselves are different matters....
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby Major Nimrod » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:56 pm

morphles wrote:I hope you mean ongoing bonus and not one time. One time is quite weird to me and I would be for eliminatin it alltogether. It basically becomes way to convert production and some (travel) time into gold, but there already is coinage which converts production into gold! So I see it as needles duplication. Now routes themselves are different matters....


Yes, I meant one time bonus (and not the persistent trade route itself).
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby monamipierrot » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:33 pm

Major Nimrod wrote:Trade is not broken at all. It's essential to winning the game!
...
Removing it, or nullifying it because some people can't appreciate the importance to victory, seems like cow-towing to the wrong group of people.


My friend, I really can't see the connection between the two things.
Did you notice that I just wrote that Trade - as it is now - could be such a HUGE advantage if properly exploited?

    Do you remember we won a Match together? Yes, it was GT01. Do you remember how? Towards the end of the World War, I bought maybe dozens of El_perdedor units and cities when he and ifaesfu were spreading inside your borders. I also bought Antwerp, one of the biggest cities in the world along with its working Wonder (!). I spent dozens of thousands of $ in the operation. Where do you think all that money came from? No, not from Auntie's weekly pocket money. It was from the instant bonus provided by a bunch of spare Freigths, all hungry for estabilishing over-inflated trade routes from my best Western cities with artificially over-inflated cities in the East. Now, the real question is: where did all those Freights came from? Yes, my mate, you already know the answer: they had been BOUGHT with incomes of previous trade routes instant bonuses. That's because I successfully found a self-sustainable economical process to over-produce $ with which virtually build a even bigger-sized process in few turns.
The process worked because I had many cities and I always found fresh trade routes to estabilish, and sometimes revived old ones once they were dropped.
Now, I didn't do it myself but I think one could build a simpler system of this kind: 6 big sized cities of more or less same size and trade, one of which ("A") quite far away from the other 5 ones and all connected by railroad. "A" has trade route with 4 of them ("B","C","D" and "E") and estabilish another trade route with the 5th ("F"), which should be better (bigger) than, say, "E". Then, with the $ earned, you both buy another caravan, and a settler in "F". Next turn you add the settler to "E" and send there the caravan. If cities are enough big and enough similar in size, you will get enough $ to cover your expenses (settler + caravan), so you can do the same again and again, just swapping "E" an "F" roles. With the rest of the $ you can buy beers or a over-sized army or enemy cities if you're that lazy.
If I had time I also would try a Pentacle: 5 big cities same sized and equally far from each other and all buying caravans and sending to other cities in order to mutually stealing/donating trade routes: this theoretically could generate a huge amount of $ without much fiddling, provided that you find the correct trim. IF you have more cities you could also buy more caravans and repeat the process as many times as caravans slot you can force to build. If rapture were enabled too, well... things would become ridicoulusly over-inflating: one could also have time to buy settlers and found more Pentacles: it would be a subprime orgy without the subprime risk. Even without the Pentacles, it sounds esoteric because it somewhat IS esoteric, i.e. it is disconnected from the "real" world (and disconnected from healthy, "real" economics of Freeciv, which are founded on good old land exploiting).

So when you talk about "importance to victory", I hear "exploitable unwanted financial esoterism".
Do you want to win with accurate economical and trade moves? Fair. You can do it very well even without the instant bonus, or having it drastically diminished.

Now I changed my mind in a more radical position so I propose this poll:
1. No change (=GT01 settings)
2. halving instant $/bulbs revenue
3. halving both persistent trade bonus and instant revenue
4. disable instant revenue
5. halving trade bonus and disable instant revenue
6. disable routes

I would vote for (4).
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby ifaesfu » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:27 am

BeckettTheIncompeten wrote:I really don't see why trade in general is such a pet peeve to people. To me I think trade routes are almost no different than a market, bank, or stock exchange, a long-term investment. Yes, there are some uneven features such as the initial trade award, which I think should be removed.

But other than those flaws, what more is a trade route compared to a market or bank?


The problem I see with the trade routes is that they make big alliances, even more powerful. It's just another feature that unbalance the games. The markets and banks are yours and they depend only on you. But trade routes depend on how many players you can establish a route with. The bigger the alliance, the better routes you can make.
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby Major Nimrod » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:30 pm

Well, this seems like a discussion which would be better suited over a few beers at the local pub :D

Needless to say, there are many divergent opinions about what is "best" for the game. For example, one person says "exploit" and somebody else says "feature". I'm not sure if we can come to the best solution in the forums, especially given that GT09 is about to start shortly.

That being said, perhaps the best thing is a compromise solution where we minimize, but not eliminate, the one time cash bonus. Given that this will be a big map, routes will be potentially lucrative but will require time and patience to establish. We could all wait around for 75 turns and farm our way to an inevitable world war, or we could speed it up a bit :)
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby Davide » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:24 pm

Outcome: Keep traderoutes, with a reduced one-time bonus, as in GT08. The periodic bonus remains unchanged.
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby monamipierrot » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:40 pm

Davide wrote:Outcome: Keep traderoutes, with a reduced one-time bonus, as in GT08. The periodic bonus remains unchanged.

Just for the record: so which is the difference with GT01?
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby Davide » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:47 pm

Contrarily to GT01, one-time bonus is 16 times lower. Also, caravans may only move along roads, railroads, rivers.
The latter restrictions is defined by the ruleset itself.
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Re: Disable trade routes

Postby monamipierrot » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:19 pm

Davide wrote:Contrarily to GT01, one-time bonus is 16 times lower.

In a previous post you stated the opposite, I think. This is the reason I worried that much. If the one-time bonus will be 16 times less than in GT01, it will be not exploitable at all, so I'm happy with this.
Still, the persistent bonus will be a yummy cherry for all big cities. Rapture is off, but cities grow faster with this ruleset, so I will still go for trade, hands down!
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