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Doughnut or cylinder?

World shape?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:25 am

Doughnut? (east-west and north-south edges connected)
3
33%
Cilinder? (only east-west edges connected)
6
67%
 
Total votes : 9

Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Corbeau » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:24 am

I just realised that the default for 09 is actually doughnut which, at least for me, is:

- illogical
- counterintuitive

The only reason I can think of for this setting is that people nearer to the poles are under a slight advantage because of fewes neighbours (assuming hostile stance; likewise, if they are succesful diplomats in making alliances, it would actually be advantageous to be in the centre). However, does everything have to be symmetric?
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot2 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:49 am

Corbeau wrote:I just realised that the default for 09 is actually doughnut which, at least for me, is:

- illogical
- counterintuitive

I'm sorry, but I like it because is counterintuitive and it is very hard to represent it in your mind!
About illogical... a cylinder doesn't sound much more logical to me.
Also, doughnut tends to create werdier worlds, such as ring Pangea with a ring Thalassia (such in GT01)
And I don't care about the theoretically "fairness" of Doughnuts. It will be an unfair map anyway!
So, my vote is for Doughnut althou I would not oppose to open a poll about it.
Only be careful in fiddling with non-temperate worlds: non-temperate cylinder worlds tend to have HUGE climate stripes, much huger than doughnut ones, so if you start on a junglish area your match is almost ended, while in a Doughnut (as I brilliantly demonstrated in GT01) you still would have chances.
My advice is that if you enable a non-temperate cylinder world, we should at least reduce size of the world and have it more crowded but with smaller climate stripes. I would reduce size to 1/2 of total tiles. OR, if it is possible (I really don't know), try to have a much longer x-axis than the y-one so the map would be very wide and very short, reducing altogether the size of stripes.
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby morphles » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:54 am

I think you can specify individual dimensions of the map. I like both options, but for this one I voted cylinder as my previous game was doughnut. Though I if we go cylinder I suggest disabling poles are separate continents as I often find separate poles a bit jarring, That also gives guaranteed circumnaviagtion around poles which might not be optimal.
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Davide » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:13 pm

Corbeau wrote:I just realised that the default for 09 is actually doughnut

The default for GT09 has remained published on datasheet as "wrapx" (cylinder) for at least one month to date.

Corbeau wrote:[...] people nearer to the poles are under a slight advantage because of fewes neighbours

That rather happens with cylindrical maps, not donuts.
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Corbeau » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:03 pm

Davide wrote:
Corbeau wrote:I just realised that the default for 09 is actually doughnut

The default for GT09 has remained published on datasheet as "wrapx" (cylinder) for at least one month to date.


:?

I humbly apologise. Lapsus cerebri, lapsus naturae. I have no idea what I was looking at when I thought this was a doughnut... So, this is my third poll that ended up in garbage which tells me that I should refrain from polls for a while...

And, since someone mentioned citymindist, do we need a poll about that?


Corbeau wrote:[...] people nearer to the poles are under a slight advantage because of fewes neighbours

That rather happens with cylindrical maps, not donuts.


Ok, that's what I meant. People should really learn to read my mind, not what I write... :P
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Davide » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:14 pm

Don't worry! The poll is totally valid for what concerns the voting : )

And I have lapsuses too, more often than I think :D Hurra for lapsuses!
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:10 am

I actually voted for doughnut :P
Anyway, if cylinder pass, and assuming it is not all_temperate, we'll have a problem of unbalance, expecially with worlds of >20,000 tiles, cause the world tends to come with climate stripes. If you found yourself around Equator, you're donde, cause you'll find in the jungle stripe (the worst) which is between 2 desert stripes and very far from the temperate (and fertile) stripes.
I don't want a boring all_temperate map so, what to do?
I suggest to choose one or more of this workarounds to balance the game:
  • make the cylinder less tall, and choose a x/y ratio of around 2/1. More radical solutions (3/1 or more) would produce some "flattened" land features as well, which would not be very elegant.
  • fiddle with elevation (scattering more mountains and hills will even terrain value in all climate areas)
  • more specials (specials are always good, and would give more value to bad terrain, expecially for desert)
  • fiddle with water (more rivers also would give some additional value to worse terrain, along to permit faster movement expecially at the beginning of the game)

In any case I would love to try a Uranus map (which is exactly the same of a cylinder terran map except that it wraps N-S, leaving the poles E and W)
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Davide » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:50 am

Alltemperate is disabled in the current proposed setup, so the map will have some diversification of the land across a north-south gradient resulting in unequal starting positions. Forcing a y/x size ratio comprised within any range between 1 to 3 would have only a marginal effect on the width of the biome strips which raster the map, because, imagining to deal with a map of about 20-30 thousand tiles, the map would be so much bigger than the area settled by a small (young) nation that the nation would still regard the biomes as large and remarked regions.
A bunch of empiric tests with the map generator baking off maps with different y/x ratios at different sizes would clarify this. I'd like if someone could make these tests and upload on forum the resulting minimaps : )

monamipierrot wrote:[...] you'll find in the jungle stripe (the worst) which is between 2 desert stripes [...]

This only happens with donut worlds; cylinders have just 1 equator. (Earth-like for a good reason!)

The other points (amount of specials, land wetness, elevation) are cool. What do you think, people? :D
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:53 pm

Davide wrote:I'd like if someone could make these tests and upload on forum the resulting minimaps : )
...
monamipierrot wrote:[...] you'll find in the jungle stripe (the worst) which is between 2 desert stripes [...]

This only happens with donut worlds; cylinders have just 1 equator. (Earth-like for a good reason!)

I did some test on my own, and my post was the result of these tests. The rest is maths: if, instead of 200x200 world you set a 400x100 one, the stripes will be 1/2 as thick (as well as the double as long). As I told, a ratio of more than 1x3 is some ugly because the land also appears to be distorted. [It looks like that the beginning of the generator process is to produce a 1x1 "raw image" of the planet. Then it STIRS it to the desired size (and aspect ratio).]

About the 2 desert stripes, here you're wrong, my friend: in both real Earth and Freeciv terran worlds, there are 2 tropical (Capricorn and Cancer) desert stripes, one South and one North of equatorial jungles.
The main difference is that Earth pattern is much more uneven and scattered, and in some areas it does not take place at all (e.g. SE Asia) while in Freeciv it is annoyingly inexorable: in the middle of the map you will ALWAYS find jungles, with its accompaning deserts both N and S.
This happens also on Uranus worlds, except that stripes are vertical.
In DOughnut worlds, there are 2 sets of stripes, 1st perpendicular with the 2nd, which secate creating 2 sets of "concentrical squares", with 4 singularities: the 2 big round icy poles at both extremes, and the 2 "junglish poles", or to better say, "junglish crosses" or "jungle bellies" which are the worst points of the map where to start.
However, this kind of map is more fair and even than a Terran one because for some reason (some mathematician could explain it better than me) the stripes are some half as thick, so if you don't fall in a "jungle belly", which is highly unlikely, you can move outside of a bad stripe in half the turns.
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Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Davide » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:41 pm

That's right, sorry. Freeciv's cylindrical maps have two desert stripes, as you say. I had to pragmatically test this out to refresh my head.

Cilinder W-E.jpg
Section of a cylindrical map (wrap W-E)
Cilinder W-E.jpg (30.27 KiB) Viewed 4548 times


So, taking another analysis, donut worlds show to have four desert stripes (instead of two) running along each of the two spatial dimensions of the map: four longitudinal and four latitudinal. This doubling of the land features causes more biome stripes to be stuffed in the map space, so may be the reason for why the generator reduces the width of the strips.
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