Accounts e-mail HP

Doughnut or cylinder?

World shape?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:25 am

Doughnut? (east-west and north-south edges connected)
3
33%
Cilinder? (only east-west edges connected)
6
67%
 
Total votes : 9

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby morphles » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:47 pm

There are more wild ways to change map generation. That is changing ruleset terraint properties like wetness temperature and steepnes. I can do some testing with that, but it should be possible to make map somethat more uniform.
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:20 am

Yes, a slightly cooler map could make less thick the tropical and equatorial stripes.
I just discovered one thing: it appears that the gigantic tundra of a very cold planet will be almost ignored by the placement engine: players will be scattered only in the central stripes, (temperate, tropical and equatorial). Only few players will find themselves just at the beginning of the vast subpolar region.

About wetness, it looks like more complicated than I thought.
A 100% wet map will scatter maybe some more jungles in equator, plus LOTS of rivers and swamps in all climate areas. Desert doesn't appear to suffer from wetness, so we can say that this kind of map is slightly worse for everyone, expecially near the swampy coasts, still a bad start for equatorial natives, but very interesting.
On the other hand, a completely dry map will abolish jungles making equatorial area a temperate fertile stripe, while maybe making a little bit thicker the desert. The drawback is in my opinion the very few number of rivers, which I miss a lot cause they add strategic complexity in early and middle game. Also swamps will be very rare, and there will be less forests also.
Lots of hills and mountains tend to steal room to forest and jungle. When set to zero, vast forest in temperate areas, and bigger jungles in equator appear.

It appears that for a 30,000tiles cylindrical map with 30 landmass, the best results are with temperature around 30: the desert stripes DOESN'T change much, but the jungle is very thin, leaving much room for temperate between the tropics. It appears also that is more possible that poles touch continents.
If you find yourself in a desert, you know you can go both S or N to find fertile land. Also, the normal temperate stripe is thinner, and it gives room to subpolar tundra which, again, will not be populated by the players, except for the very 1st rows of tiles.
We could also let it rain much (wetness=80): it appears not to encourage jungles at all, but provide lots of rivers.
So my advice is:
landmass=30 (as it is now)
wetness=80
temperature=30

(steepness=30? - didn't experiment further but I believe that if we keep it higher to make map more "physical", we don't need to keep the temperature as low cause many jungles will be changed directly to hills.)
monamipierrot
Co-Admin of GT01, GT10-Hex.
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:43 pm
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby Davide » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:48 am

The settings you proposed give a pretty interesting result:

Map.jpg
Latitude: 70-80° N (mounts at north)


Map.jpg
Temperate equatorial island
User avatar
Davide
 
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:34 am

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby morphles » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:29 am

First you got mu suggestion completly wrong :) Second, monami do not count on rivers giving movement boost as they don't give anything on civ2civ3 ;) Only thing is that triremes can travel in them, admitedly that is interesting and strategic thing, still not the same as in default.

I did not meant adjusting server settings. I ment adjusting terrain definitions in ruleset so that generator would think about grasslands as dryer than normaly and thus the effect would be that some of the deserts would be replaced with grasslands since they would suite the environment according to gen. Such changes only affect generation. Or you could for example make generator think that hills are totaly flat and thus there would be many many hills generated. :) In general you can get quite whacky with this. We can also add more terains with identical stats and parameters only differing in where generator places them. Think adding "dry grassland" and "wet grassland" both act identically to grassland in game, but generator will place some of the dry grass near/in desert region, making them more hospitable, and wet near swap regions again making them more hospitable. With enough adjustments such sprinkling could make more uniform map without completly eliminating biomes. Though I haven't toyed with that a lot. But I did couple of experiments some time ago. (if you want to see it in action take galcier and make it warm, marvel at how generator palces it in tropics ;) )
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:39 am

This is actually very interesting.
Question: if you fiddle just by "milding" values of temperature/wetness, will the generator produce a more irregular shape of the climate stripes? (As in Earth?)
monamipierrot
Co-Admin of GT01, GT10-Hex.
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:43 pm
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby morphles » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:43 am

I'm not sure, as I said I only experimented marginaly, that is by generating some galciers in tropics and fidling with steepness to produce more acceptable mountain/hill/flat rations and distributions. Considering that it is random generation it should be quite possible to fiddle something like that. Though how much time that would require is hard to tell. And again I'd see no problem of having multiple identical terrains that would differ only in placement during generation. You can even name them identically. Myabe I'll try something like tha tonight. I like looking at maps anyways :)
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby morphles » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:58 pm

Ok this is litteraly 2 minutes of experimenting:
not_a_desert_stripe.png

This is how desert strpe lookes after one line addition in terrain ruleset, some more adjustments probably should be made and some more refinments, but this desert stripe is very livable :)
So maybe we are planing on using this? There are ways for many variations, and if we allow ourselves to have more terrains (identical with same names) probably quite nice things could be made. If my lazynes declines maybe I'll toy a bit more this evening or maybe tomorrow.
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:15 pm

Excellent job.
However, for me, even just a thinner stripe would be prefarable over a not-so-bad-and-still-wide-stripe.
As I can see the same you obtained with deserts applied to equarotial jungles in N edge of the image, am I wrong?
I just wonder: if you could do this, could you do the opposite, i.e. to scatter few bad terrain (such as desert, jungle, tundra or even glacier) in temperate areas? This, along with a *moderate* deserts and jungles milding, would also even things.
Also, could glaciers have some chances to appear wherever NEAR mountains (i.e. could we tell the generator to put glaciers for very elevated terrains?) Also desert should be given a elevation property some high (in real earth deserts are more likely to be elevated and far from coasts)

And if you are that good, could you also touch something about generator itself? E.g. I would love to see:
- more than one (populated) continents
- continents should be thinner cause sometimes they are very, how to say, "Pangeic", without interesting shapes
- scatter more archipelagoes and small/medium islands

Is there a manner to trick the generator by having him create a world for a number x of players, and then tell him to fill it with a different number of players (e.g. > or >> than x)?

Again, great job.
monamipierrot
Co-Admin of GT01, GT10-Hex.
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:43 pm
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby morphles » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:46 pm

Monami its quite simple fidling, for example copy default ruleset, rename it and fiddle with terrain properties. Scaterring bad tarain is no problem (I currenly have edition where deserts are scatter all over the place), I though having glaciers also high is no problem too. But i see that freecivs generators are hardly predictable they utilize parameters in weird ways or sequences, and with my fidling I have deserts and glaciers sprinkled all over the place. Though I managed to limit that sprinkling:
mx2.png

Still glaciers ar not really near mountains they tend to be a bit closer, but not really, see right most glacier no hils or mountains around.

I'm thinking about writing more advanced generator (though looking at code it seems current ones are quite involved). I'm thinking about posibility of basing it on plate tectonics + some errosion and then climate patterns. Dunno how suitable for game that would be and how much time it would use, probably quite a bit and thus I might leave it unfinished... But as long as I'm playing on gt I seem to have some interest in Freeciv so I might manage to move my ass on this too. Just don't count on anything coming out any time soon. I'll probably also need to se Davides mapper utility (source) which he uses to convert images into maps.
morphles
Co-Admin of GT10-Hexmap
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Re: Doughnut or cylinder?

Postby monamipierrot » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:55 pm

If we can rely on human placement (i.e. Davide manually scattering players in a generated map) than here I am with the best properties for a map generator (30,000tiles with landmass=30 and suitable for around 40 players):
- fractal
- one player per continent
- set number of players around 5 (less players creates bigger - and less - continents, more players creates more and smaller continents and a more maze-like pattern)
After that the human God can scatter the 40 players in one, two or more continents, depending on players choice and his own judgement.
monamipierrot
Co-Admin of GT01, GT10-Hex.
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:43 pm
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PreviousNext

Return to Polls

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron