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Genral discussion about game setup

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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby ifaesfu » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:37 pm

Corbeau wrote:So, in order to make "no tech trade" have more impact on the game, why not disable - or make harder - stealing or conquering.

Well, that has been lenghtily addressed on the post of your "pack alliance" poll. But just a little brief: It isn't possible to prevent players from taking techs by stealing or conquering. "Base chance for diplomats and spies to succeed" (diplchance) can't be less than 40. And even if it could be, it wouldn't be desirable. About conquering, there is a setting called conquercost, but it only makes you lose a percentage of bulbs or I don't know what.
The only good way to limit the tech trading is to use the setting techlost so that once a player gets a tech from another player, he has got a chance to lose it immediately.

Well, it depends what kind of complication. Suppose you simply want to pass on a town to your alliance mate. Simply, some territorial consolidation. (Let's ignore the abuses for a moment.) You need to:
- break the alliance
- declare war
- however, declaring war creates problems for your alliances with other people who are in alliance with both you and your alliance mate
- take over the town (which, BTW, loses 1 population and, possibly, some buildings)
- make cease-fire an then alliance, patch up all the diplomatic mess that was created around you.
And all of that simply because you wanted to streighten out your borders. (Again, let's ignore the abuses which dwell on, I will.)

That's the point, to make things harder for the alliances, above all if they are big. But I see something negative on return: those players who can stay more time online, can beat those complications better than those who can't.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby morphles » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:49 pm

Well I think it's pretty well established that tech situation needs work :)

As fro city trading, trading by war, seems like, well I do not know how to express it, false complication? Fake difficulty? Obstructing inevitable? Dunno. The point is I do not see it as proper solution to anything, its basically interface voes, if you and your ally is on at same time you can still do it in no tame at all! With meager cost of 2 pop, which is nothing if cities traded are below level 8, just pop some migrants from lame cities and recover the pop. And with some planing there one could arrange so that cities that are important to trade are below 8 pop, which might not be entirely optimal, but still. So such blocking seems inadequate, cheesy and lame, like one can't be interested enough to do non half assed job of addressing the problem. Thats my take.

Corebau asked whats the deal with city trading. Well I think it's mostly wonders, or I'd guess. Trading something like statue of liberty can have quite significant effect! With right arrangement, all alliance can switch to desired governments in one turn, which seems to be against the spirit of the wonder. Other wonders can be exploited a bit too, Leonardo workshop might matter, lighthouse and magellans might matter to, you could do nasty surprises to your enemy by suddenly gaining additional movement. Also I could see it as being used to trade significant units, possibly caravans (I do not think that you can help allies wonder with your caravans), with city trade you can basically pool caravans, get wonder, then share the effects of said wonder! And if you are lone man against alliance employing such shenianagans, well good luck...
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby Corbeau » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:28 pm

ifaesfu wrote:It isn't possible to prevent players from taking techs by stealing or conquering. "Base chance for diplomats and spies to succeed" (diplchance) can't be less than 40. And even if it could be, it wouldn't be desirable.

Why?

About conquering, there is a setting called conquercost, but it only makes you lose a percentage of bulbs or I don't know what.

Sounds good. Combined with other stuff, it could make trading tech pretty difficult so that it makes a difference.

The only good way to limit the tech trading is to use the setting techlost so that once a player gets a tech from another player, he has got a chance to lose it immediately.

See above.

morphles wrote:As fro city trading, trading by war, seems like, well I do not know how to express it, false complication? Fake difficulty? Obstructing inevitable? Dunno.

Exactly! I think we're on the same page here.

Corebau asked whats the deal with city trading. Well I think it's mostly wonders, or I'd guess. Trading something like statue of liberty can have quite significant effect! With right arrangement, all alliance can switch to desired governments in one turn, which seems to be against the spirit of the wonder. Other wonders can be exploited a bit too, Leonardo workshop might matter, lighthouse and magellans might matter to, you could do nasty surprises to your enemy by suddenly gaining additional movement

Yeah, good point. There could be a way around that, either disable trade of cities with wonders or destroy a wonder when a city changes hands. (As a consolation, maybe allow it to be rebuilt, meaning, get it back to the pool.)

However, I'd say that this needs grabbing the code, not only rulesets, no?

Also I could see it as being used to trade significant units,

I don't have a problem with that.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby ifaesfu » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:28 am

Corbeau wrote:
ifaesfu wrote:It isn't possible to prevent players from taking techs by stealing or conquering. "Base chance for diplomats and spies to succeed" (diplchance) can't be less than 40. And even if it could be, it wouldn't be desirable.

Why?

It's already explained in the thread for the "alliance pack". I don't like to decrease so much the chances of the diplomats/spies to succeed (40%). Diplchance doesn't only affect the chance of stealing, but also all other diplomatic actions (bribe, sabotage...). It wouldn't be too bad either, but as tech trading using conquered cities can't be disabled, I think diplchance doesn't need to be decreased at all.

ifaesfu wrote:About conquering, there is a setting called conquercost, but it only makes you lose a percentage of bulbs or I don't know what.

Sounds good. Combined with other stuff, it could make trading tech pretty difficult so that it makes a difference.

Not so good. It doesn't prevent a player from getting a tech. I don't really know how it really works. I should make a test with conquercost=100 to see what happens.

See above.
No, no efficient solutions there.

Yes morphes, the wonder issue is there too, but it is solved if the game uses small wonders. I don't like great wonders in this kind of games with so many players. It's totally unfair and the power of some wonders is too much. It's absurd to play this kind of game if Statue of Liberty can do the goverment trick. Marco Polo is absurd too if it gives embassies and so on...
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby morphles » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:14 pm

@ifaesfu, yeah I'm also all for abolishing great wonders, even for apollo and manhattan (someone said that those still used to remain big in some ruleset that made all other wonders small).

All polls are concluded, and commited, probably better to not open another one. If it will involve ruleset changes I might not be able to complete them.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby ifaesfu » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:17 pm

morphles wrote:(someone said that those still used to remain big in some ruleset that made all other wonders small).

Oh, I thought small wonders was a standard in civ2civ3 ruleset. So, are you playing with great wonders the current Gt games? I don't remember how the wonders were in my last Gt game, but I'm sure they were small in lt31 and lt32 with civ2civ3 ruleset. Yes, there were some great wonders, but their bigger effects are shared by all the nations. For example, Great Library doubled the effect of the libraries for every nation, gave an immediate technology advance and +4 science where it was built. The default effect is too powerful. The contrary for Eiffel Wonder, useless in this kind of games.

I'm now playing the scenario game that Bardo included with the latest version of civ2civ3 and there are great wonders. Maybe AI can't manage small wonders, but that isn't a problem in Gt.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby morphles » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:35 pm

No, only small wonder in civ2civ3 is "Palace". I have no idea why brado made wonders great. Possibly tradition. Some people seem to think that without great wonders there are no significantly less specialization in nations, but I do not agree with that. I also know about wonder setup in civ2civ3, like mentioned for great library or Isac Newtons college etc.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby kevin55I » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:20 pm

If Maho had left his old longturn website alive you would have been able to read the archives to find out all the exploits in each of the Great Wonders. There are very strong reasons why longturn does not use them. I suggest copying the small wonders from LT31/LT32.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby morphles » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:43 pm

I adjusted turn change time, for first turn to last 3 days, as monami requested.
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Re: Genral discussion about game setup

Postby BeckettTheIncompeten » Mon May 05, 2014 2:31 pm

Hey Morphles, could I also ask that you adjust the turn change time to be synced up with the other 3 GT servers. It's a big help to those of us playing multiple games! Thanks.
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