PR#6578: Limitations on technology transfer

[Per]

The technology tree should always be continuous. Tech transfered between players must not result in a player having techs for which he does not have the prerequisites. This should apply to tech exchange, stealing, conquering, and huts.

To avoid extra information leak, exchanging techs in a meeting must require two embassies. When exchanging techs in diplomacy, giving a tech also gives away all the dependencies that the other player does not have.

GUI implementation for tech exchange should include a number after the
tech, giving the number of technolgies that are simultaniously
transferred with the choosen one.

[dewimorgan]

If this is implemented then there will be no call for the "redundancies" like the following:

Code:

Civ 1 rules:

Research type    | Redundant Req    | Already Req'd by
-----------------+------------------+-------------------
Computers        | Mathematics      | Electronics
Democracy        | Literacy         | Philosophy
Electronics      | Engineering      | Electricity
Flight           | Physics          | Combustion
Magnetism        | Navigation       | Physics
Mass Production  | The Corporation  | Automobile
Physics          | Mathematics      | Navigation
Plastics         | Refining         | Space Flight
Robotics         | Computers        | Plastics
The Corporation  | Banking          | Industrialization
The Republic     | Code of Laws     | Literacy
Religion         | Writing          | Philosophy

Civ 2 rules:

Research type    | Redundant Req    | Already Req'd by
-----------------+------------------+-------------------
Fusion Power     | Nuclear Power    | Superconductors
Laser            | Mass Production  | Nuclear Power
Mass Production  | The Corporation  | Automobile
Plastics         | Refining         | Space Flight
Superconductors  | Nuclear Power    | Laser
The Republic     | Code of Laws     | Literacy

IMHO this is a good thing.

However, it should be togglable with a server setting, because IMHO getting a cool advanced tech is always cool, and it's also cool when a retard neighbour who's wy behind steals some advanced tech off you then kicks your ass with it. Rationalising this so that it must be linear takes a small amount of the fun out of the game.

[Albatrossix]

[quote="Per"]The technology tree should always be continuous. Tech transfered between players must not result in a player having techs for which he does not have the prerequisites. This should apply to tech exchange, stealing, conquering, and huts.

To avoid extra information leak, exchanging techs in a meeting must require two embassies. When exchanging techs in diplomacy, giving a tech also gives away all the dependencies that the other player does not have.

GUI implementation for tech exchange should include a number after the
tech, giving the number of technolgies that are simultaniously
transferred with the choosen one.

[url=http://rt.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=6578]http://rt.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=6578[/url][/quote]

Hmm, Is it still possible to argue against this behaviour? All dependancies for Automobile is everything up to automobile, no?
I think that this behaviour should be optional, for I, for one wouldn't like it.
I think that having a few techs specified as 'essential', mentioned as a list for each tech entry would be nicer for gameplay. Ie: a slightly more complex behaviour for this idea. This means you don't need the whole tech tree to get a tech, just the most relevant ones (and all the relevant ones.).

Horsebackriding is, technically speaking, a prerequisite for Mobile Warfare, isn't it? Yet I don't think it has much to offer to your knowledge of tanks. 'Horse power' isn't a crucial concept in the development of man, could have been lama power if the inca's had dominated the world, or panda power if the chinese hadn't been repeatedly invaded by mongols. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Anyway, Elephants are much more powerfull than horses [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

You then could have a special type of essential tech requirement:"All", which stands for all prerequisits and gives the exact function you describe, yet allows for totally different behaviour (along with behaviour where you can get techs without needing any prerequisits (all knowledge is self contained, in such a scenario) to be specified in the rulesets.

On the matter in bold: Specifing things in the rulesets, inside of the individual entries, allows for more variation than having server settings (and global parameters), I think.

As for server options:
I miss the ability to lock server options, fixing their behaviour, in .serv file and ruleset files, especially for mods where, for gameplay, some parameters must not be changed. ie: "set_locked [b]humidity[/b]70" (humidity is a better word than 'wetness', which is currently used (it's more correct, I think). Also, maybe you have a mod that is specifically written for a certain type of land generation (islands or one super continent, for example), If someone would accidently tweak these settings, the gameplay might get screwed up. (Maybe the AI behaviour would be extra bad)

[Kagetenshi]

[quote="Per"]The technology tree should always be continuous.[/quote]

Why? Please explain your reasoning beyond what was in the linked ticket though I'll grant that your reasoning there may be strong enough to argue for making this an option.

For what it's worth, while I agree WRT huts (as appears to be implemented by now) and maybe city conquest/theft, I disagree wholeheartedly for technology exchange.

~J, diving into the fray late

[Elden]

Here's an odd idea...if you "gain" through tech theft or conquering a tech that you don't have all the prerequisites for, you get a number of bulbs (the amount it would take to research the "stolen tech" itself) towards the relevant techs, one at a time.

It would be as if your nation's tech goal was set to the one you just "stole" and you got a bunch of bulbs; they'd go through one at a time as long as you had the bulbs. Reverse engineering in action: if you steal the basics for Advanced Flight but you don't have flight, you probably can't recreate Advanced Flight right away; but on the other hand the knowledge is probably enough that you could figure out Flight from it.

This way it's still advanatagous to attack someone with higher techs then you have; while at the same time keeping the tech tree consistent.


As for why, I think keeping the tech tree continuous is vital for a few reasons:

• It makes more sense. You can currently steal Stealth and build Stealth Fighters/Bombers without any knowledge of Flight or Advanced Flight, that's hardly sensical.
  
• It mitigates the impact of a player "getting lucky" and stealing a tech far beyond their current researches. Currently, a diplomat could steal Labor Union from another player, and then the diplomat's player could churn out Mechanized Infantry before they even had Gunpower. (OK, so that example's overdramatic, but the basic principle is the same; getting the right tech can make or break a player's game and the chance of stealing really high techs).
  
• Some effects are tied to a player having specific techs (increase of population pollution, decrease of trade revenue, etc.) and skipping those techs could result in an odd advantage for players trying to avoid them by stealing "past" them.

[markm]

This is an old old thread, but I was reading this section anyway...

It occurs to me that with the example given, of churning out Mech Inf, on the manufacturing side the main problem is likely to be lack of tools to make precision parts; you maybe do not have to understand how the thing works, you could think it is magic, but if you machine those parts precisely enough and assemble them as instructed the machinery should work. I am not so sure about the influence of the Labour Union on the thing, maybe the people you try to get to drive the vehicles would not have the esprit do corps that they would have if they were properly unionised, or something?

But the aspect I see in this is not so much that you need to know machine tools as that you might need to actually have some kind of precision tools. So to me this points back toward the old idea that maybe you ought to need certain kinds of buildings to make some kinds of units. Like to make automobiles and mech inf and such maybe you ought to need a workshoip that has the right kind of tools in it?

SO you might not need to know the machine tools tech, thus having the ability to build machine tools yourself, to make some mech inf or automobiles or whatever IF there was a suitably equipped factory or manufacturing plant in one of your cities (that you captured, for example)?

The point that some pre-requisites are less crucial than others is a good one I think...

-MarkM-

[HanduMan]

So this one is buried and forgotten? I'll give you yet another aspect on the matter.

There is a setting in the game that will give a penalty for any traded or stolen technology. If in a multiplayer game with diplcost > 0 someone trades for a technology that they do not have all the prerequisites for, they gain an unfair advantage over those who aquire the same tech by researching it. That is because the amount of the penalty bulbs is only dependent on the actual technology's required bulbs, not the requirements.

I'd call this a bug. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

[Munk]

[quote="Elden"]You can currently steal Stealth and build Stealth Fighters/Bombers without any knowledge of Flight or Advanced Flight, that's hardly sensical.[/quote]

One need only ponder the example of Kuwait, where the discovery of a certain resource (oil) propelled the entire nation from essentially a 12th-century standard of living to a 20th-century one in about 30 years. The tech they acquired wasn't so much stolen as just foisted on them by westerners looking to get that resource, but the people pretty much went from riding camels to driving cars and flying high-tech aircraft, and immediately adapted to computers and modern banking without spending really any time at all on the intermediary techs.

It's actually fairly common for nations to adopt technologies in their highest form without needing to learn the intermediary techs.